Let me start out by saying this - I was never going to change my name. Never. Ever. I wasn't going to, and I didn't. So there's that spoiler out of the way. :-)
Of course, we all know that life is a little more complicated than 'I'll just make up my mind and stick to it no matter what.' Even though I may have known all of my adult life that I would never change my name, it certainly doesn't mean that I haven't had many, many thoughts and feelings about that decision. In fact, I often tell people that if I were writing a dissertation all over again I would want to do qualitative research on this topic. Not only am I fascinated by how and why people make this decision, but I'm also interested in whether there are ways to make this process easier and more equitable for all parties involved. Because, until the day comes when men get married and then are asked "So, what's your new name?" then I think we (all of us, regardless of gender) have more work to do on this issue.
Side note, and I hope this is obvious but I'm saying it anyway - I'm writing only about my own experience, thoughts, and feelings here. Of course I support, without judgment, whatever choice people want to make about their own name. That said, I do wish it were more common for men to change their names, women to keep their names, and any and all parties to create new names (hyphenated, made up, or otherwise). I have a hunch that would create so much more freedom and permission for everyone, to replace many of the judgments, assumptions and expectations that currently exist.
Certainly those gendered assumptions about names definitely affected how I felt about the name change issue in my relationship with Mr. FW. As you no doubt recall, Mr. FW was not always a mister and it's been interesting for me to notice how his gender transition has impacted the way I was navigating my own thoughts and feelings about our names and our future family. Even though I had strong feelings about not changing my name, Mr. FW did not (and does not) feel strongly about keeping his name so there has been the possibility of him making (another) name change.
When we were two women in a relationship with one another, Mr. FW said that he would be happy to take my name if and when we got married. Back then my feeling about this was that somehow one of us taking the other name's capitulated to a cultural assumption that a woman (or at least one woman) should change her name when she gets married. At the time, Mr. FW taking my name seemed inequitable and therefore not the right choice for us.
Interestingly, that really changed when Mr. FW was post-transition and officially a man. In fact, I kinda liked the role reversal of Mr. FW taking my name. In my eyes, one person taking another person's name is by its very nature an unequal act, but in this case it didn't feel inequitable or unfair. Neither of us was completely sold, though. We had just come off one name change process, and embarking on another felt really daunting (though Mr. FW was willing, which is simply amazing given how tedious the process was).
Also, I was considering how our shared name would be perceived by others. Although our personal reasoning felt good to me, in the eyes of the world it would be assumed that our family name was Mr. FW's name and not mine - because he's a man. I think the right thing to say here is that I don't care what other people think. Perhaps technically I don't, by which I mean that I would never make this decision solely because of how it would be seen by others. But it would be dishonest to say that I don't care at all about it. It's important to me to hang on to my name - not because of a sentimental attachment to the name or to my paternal lineage or anything like that. It's important to me on principle. My name is mine and I suppose I want people to know that this name is and always has been mine.
I think it says something about me that I'm a person who wants to keep my last name, so if Mr. FW and I share a last name then that principled choice will be less visible than if Mr. FW and I have different last names. That dilemma gave me enough pause that, at least for now, Mr. FW and I are both keeping our names.
When it comes to our eventual childrens' last names, we have had a solution to that problem worked out for a while. It didn't make much sense to us that we would both keep our names but then choose one or the other for our children, nor are either of us a fan of the hyphenated name. We thought about finding some combination of both our last names, but no matter what we tried they just don't combine very well. Also, combining our last names would give a nod to both of our paternal family names but would leave out the maternal side. So one day I sat down with four names - both of our father's last names (our last names) and both of our mother's last names before marriage - and I created what Mr. FW and I think is one rockin' last name for our kids.
Okay, in case I lost you, here's the recap: Mr. FW and I both kept our last names and we've created a "family" last name that our children will share.
There is, however, one little hiccup to this plan. Mr. FW is still deciding whether it's important to him that he share a last name with our children. If we have kids via me getting pregnant, then Mr. FW won't have a biological link to those children, which means he might then feel more strongly that he have a link in the form of a shared last name. So then he would consider taking the "family" name that we created. In that case, if Mr. FW and the kids all share the same name, then I'm guessing that might change how I feel about having a different last name than the rest of my immediate family. But until the day Mr. FW actually makes that decision, I'm not going to force myself to decide what I would do in that currently hypothetical situation. And if we end up having children through adoption, then that might result in a whole other set of considerations (legal, cultural, and emotional) that we haven't yet fully flushed out.
So that's where we stand. We are happy with our decisions because they work for us, for now. And we're both open to the idea that the future may bring new and exciting adventures that could cause us to re-think these decisions and/or make new ones.
Now, who will comment and tell me that their partner is considering taking their name?? I know you must be out there, and I want to hear your story!
Showing posts with label marriage. Show all posts
Showing posts with label marriage. Show all posts
Monday, January 2, 2012
Tuesday, October 25, 2011
It's Feeling Real Now, Folks!
Yep, today Mr. FW and I made the arduous ten minute trek to City Hall, and we completed the shockingly easy task of applying for a marriage license. As we walked up the front steps of the building I recalled that the last time I was actually inside the City Hall rotunda was a few years ago when one of my friends married his husband during the brief period of time when gay marriage was legal in California. On that day the entire building was full of lights, cameras, press members, happy couples, and excited guests. But today the place was silent, with only our voices echoing off the marble.
There were no signs directing us where to go, so we wandered around until we found the unassuming corridor with the door marked 'County Clerk.' We actually arrived on time for our appointment, and if you know me at all, you know what a miracle that is.
Mr. FW lovingly offered to fill out the form for us since I was pretty busy snapping pictures of the whole process. My favorite part of the license application was this: "At the time of application for a marriage license, one or both parties to the marriage may elect to change the middle or last names, or both, by which that party wishes to be known after solemnization of the marriage... Parties may adopt any of the following last names: the current last name of the other spouse; the last name of either spouse given at birth; a name combining into a single last name all or a segment of the current last name or the last name of either spouse given at birth; a hyphenated combination of last names."
How incredible is that?! I love the flexibility that California law allows for both parties when it comes to changing names with the marriage license. (Also, I know I haven't posted about mine and Mr. FW's thoughts when it comes to name changes, but I will later if it interests anyone.)
A few minutes later and our form was all processed and ready to go. We were given the information about what our "officiant" (aka deputized sister of the groom) needs to fill out, which we promptly forgot and will have to research again later.
And that was it. So quick and so simple, this legal process to get married. Mr. FW commented on our way out that, for how easy it was to get a marriage license, it somehow makes it even more sad and ridiculous that not everyone can get married - in this state or so many other places. And I certainly agree. *sigh* Maybe one day...
As for us, our license is good until January of 2012 so let's just hope we can pull off a wedding sometime between now and then!
Was anyone else amazed by how easy the marriage license process was? (I think I remember my mother telling stories that, back in the day, they required bloodwork in order to secure a marriage license. Sheesh! So, so glad we've moved on from that.) :-)
Thursday, October 13, 2011
The Meaning of Marriage, Part 2
In ways large and small, and ways that I don't even know yet, marriage will change a lot about our relationship because of the meaning it holds both for us and for other people. I have been a staunch advocate of marriage equality for as long as I can remember, but being on the verge of marriage myself really illuminates all the ways that marriage is different from a civil union. Those changes I referenced in my last post, well, I'm not sure if or when they would've happened if Mr. FW and I weren't getting married.
It seems to me that people have been viewing us differently since we got engaged, and I think it's because they know what a marriage is, they know what it means, and they know how to relate to it. It's not like we didn't have a serious relationship before, because we did. But our relationship looks somehow more significant to people now, and thus they react to it differently. Like everyone else, we had the option of entering into a civil union or domestic partnership earlier in our relationship, but we wanted to get married. And marriage is not the same as a civil union or a domestic partnership. The proof of this is that even heterosexual couples avail themselves of these options in order to, say, take advantage of their partner's health insurance benefits, and they can do so prior to the point where they feel "ready" to get married. For me personally it sometimes feels like civil unions and domestic partnerships are talked about as if they are "wedding light." I don't necessarily see it that way, and I'm sure queer couples (who enter into those arrangements because they're the closest they can currently get to marriage) don't see it that way, but to me it's pretty clear that marriage is more than just the act of two people legally entangling themselves with one another.
For instance, we bought a house together (a legal and financial entanglement) long before we were ever engaged, and we could tell at the time that some people thought that was probably an irresponsible decisions for us to make. Because as a society we tend to understand things like joint home ownership through the lens of marriage. And we understand raising children through the lens of marriage. We understand so much through the lens of marriage. Yes, these are culturally constructed understandings of marriage, but Mr. FW and I live in this culture and we can't separate ourselves from that.
We have grappled very seriously with the potential hypocrisy of taking advantage of the institution of marriage when it would have been denied to us as recently as a year ago. I don't think there are any easy answers to this issue, either. In the end, we came to some important conclusions that feel okay to us but might not be a good fit for other people. So I offer the caveat that these thoughts are ours and ours alone.
First, we have been supportive of any couple who wants to avail themselves of marriage at any time they can. This has included brief periods of time where gay marriage was allowed in San Francisco and/or legal in California, even if those decisions were later reversed. In fact, we considered getting married as a queer couple back when it would have been legal in California, but we decided we didn't want to rush something that was so important to us. Second, we can't see a way that not accessing the privilege of legal marriage for ourselves would support the fight for marriage equality. We actually think that accessing marriage will give us a platform to better speak to people about just what marriage gives us that we wouldn't have had access to otherwise. We both strongly believe that individuals with privilege can - and should - find ways to utilize that privilege to advocate for those without privilege. And third, we recognize that, for us, knowingly engaging in such privilege necessitates taking on the responsibility of acknowledging that privilege whenever we can and not allowing ourselves to become blind to it.
We have come to these conclusions based on what marriage means to us right now, as an unmarried but engaged couple. I'm interested to see how getting married, being married, and staying married will change how we perceive its meaning in the future.
What experiences have you had that illustrate the meaning of marriage in your life?
It seems to me that people have been viewing us differently since we got engaged, and I think it's because they know what a marriage is, they know what it means, and they know how to relate to it. It's not like we didn't have a serious relationship before, because we did. But our relationship looks somehow more significant to people now, and thus they react to it differently. Like everyone else, we had the option of entering into a civil union or domestic partnership earlier in our relationship, but we wanted to get married. And marriage is not the same as a civil union or a domestic partnership. The proof of this is that even heterosexual couples avail themselves of these options in order to, say, take advantage of their partner's health insurance benefits, and they can do so prior to the point where they feel "ready" to get married. For me personally it sometimes feels like civil unions and domestic partnerships are talked about as if they are "wedding light." I don't necessarily see it that way, and I'm sure queer couples (who enter into those arrangements because they're the closest they can currently get to marriage) don't see it that way, but to me it's pretty clear that marriage is more than just the act of two people legally entangling themselves with one another.
For instance, we bought a house together (a legal and financial entanglement) long before we were ever engaged, and we could tell at the time that some people thought that was probably an irresponsible decisions for us to make. Because as a society we tend to understand things like joint home ownership through the lens of marriage. And we understand raising children through the lens of marriage. We understand so much through the lens of marriage. Yes, these are culturally constructed understandings of marriage, but Mr. FW and I live in this culture and we can't separate ourselves from that.
We have grappled very seriously with the potential hypocrisy of taking advantage of the institution of marriage when it would have been denied to us as recently as a year ago. I don't think there are any easy answers to this issue, either. In the end, we came to some important conclusions that feel okay to us but might not be a good fit for other people. So I offer the caveat that these thoughts are ours and ours alone.
image via Stinkerpants.com (aka Mrs. Cream Puff!)
We have come to these conclusions based on what marriage means to us right now, as an unmarried but engaged couple. I'm interested to see how getting married, being married, and staying married will change how we perceive its meaning in the future.
What experiences have you had that illustrate the meaning of marriage in your life?
Tuesday, October 11, 2011
The Meaning of Marriage, Part 1
Almost a year ago now, as I was preparing the Thanksgiving meal we would share with Mr. FW's parents, I became aware that I was spending time reflecting on relationships and family - more specifically, how relationships shape how we define family. I had been casually referring to Mr. FW's family as "my in-laws" for a while, probably since the time everyone started taking for granted that I would be included in his family functions. Last year though, as I was about to tell someone, "We're having Thanksgiving dinner with my in-laws," I stopped myself from using that term, instead changing it to "dinner with Mr. FW's parents." In that split second I recall thinking that they would be my legitimate in-laws in less than a year, so I should reserve that term for the time after we're officially married.
The phrase ricocheted around in my mind for a second longer than it should have before I realized why it felt so uncomfortable. We spent the majority of our relationship knowing that "officially married" is something we couldn't have. So for us, and I imagine for many other queer and/or non-traditional couples, not being able to (or not wanting to) get "officially married" means that there's no hard-and-fast moment when a relationship moves from dating to committed. So when do you call your partner's parents your in-laws, when does your partner become an assumed member of family photos, when do people get to feel okay asking you about whether you'll have kids, etc. etc.? Basically, when do people see you and your partner as a family rather than just a relationship? And how does that timing relate to when you and your partner see yourselves as a family?
Like it or not, in this society the act of entering into a marriage adds legitimacy to your relationship - in your eyes, in the eyes of your families, and in the eyes of the law (at least for heterosexual couples, and for some gay couples in terms of state law only). And weddings are the way we mark the moment we enter into a marriage. So marriages/weddings answer all those questions and so many more.
I'm not sure if that resonates with anyone else, but for me I know that being engaged and planning a wedding have shown me meanings of marriage that I hadn't before known and/or considered.
Can you relate to this at all?
The phrase ricocheted around in my mind for a second longer than it should have before I realized why it felt so uncomfortable. We spent the majority of our relationship knowing that "officially married" is something we couldn't have. So for us, and I imagine for many other queer and/or non-traditional couples, not being able to (or not wanting to) get "officially married" means that there's no hard-and-fast moment when a relationship moves from dating to committed. So when do you call your partner's parents your in-laws, when does your partner become an assumed member of family photos, when do people get to feel okay asking you about whether you'll have kids, etc. etc.? Basically, when do people see you and your partner as a family rather than just a relationship? And how does that timing relate to when you and your partner see yourselves as a family?
Like it or not, in this society the act of entering into a marriage adds legitimacy to your relationship - in your eyes, in the eyes of your families, and in the eyes of the law (at least for heterosexual couples, and for some gay couples in terms of state law only). And weddings are the way we mark the moment we enter into a marriage. So marriages/weddings answer all those questions and so many more.
image via mindpetals.com
Mr. FW and I have known for at least the past four years that we were in it for the long haul. Our relationship was entirely legitimate to us and we saw ourselves as a little family (or a pack, as we refer to ourselves and the dogs). But I know I wasn't prepared for how much other people's views of our relationship would impact how I felt about our relationship, and over the eighteenish months of our engagement I've started to feel the many ways this wedding will change a lot of little things.
For instance, after we got engaged it felt like our relationship seemed more "normal" to people - they knew how to relate to it and they had a social framework for understanding it. I was engaged, which meant I'd then have a wedding. Everyone knows what those things are and what they mean. So after we get married, Mr. FW will be included in our family's holiday name draw, he'll be expected to be present in family pictures, it will be assumed that he and I will travel places together, and it will make sense to people when we talk about having kids. All those little things add up, and they make me feel like people are actually seeing Mr. FW and I as we've seen ourselves for such a long time - as a family. Before I had these little privileges and assumptions, I didn't realize I was missing them. But now that I have them, I'm aware of how much more significant our relationship feels... to me. It's hard to imagine our relationship feeling more significant than it already did, but with all of that added legitimacy, somehow it does.
I'm not sure if that resonates with anyone else, but for me I know that being engaged and planning a wedding have shown me meanings of marriage that I hadn't before known and/or considered.
Can you relate to this at all?
Monday, August 8, 2011
The H Word
ring from Etsy seller Kablamindustries
The other day someone asked about where we were going on our honeymoon, and at some point in that conversation I casually said that Mr. FW would be my "newly minted husband."
And it stopped me right in my tracks.
That word. Husband. Hu... husb... (slowly now) huusssbaaand. So weird. So foreign. When I said it there were no warm fuzzies, no contended smiles about this idea of someone being my husband. To be completely honest (and I know this is harsh), it felt icky to utter that word. Sure, it always takes a while to adjust to new circumstances, and trust me when I say that I have a keen understanding of what it takes to integrate new names, labels, and roles for the people in our lives. I get it. But this felt like more than just a lack of familiarity with the H word. This felt like a lack of comfort with the concept, and that surprised me.
I'm not completely sure where the discomfort comes from. What does it mean to have a husband? For that matter, what does it mean to be a wife? Taken to the next level, what does it mean to be a queer person with a husband or a wife? And to really throw a wrench in the gears, what does it mean to be an invisibly queer person with a husband or a wife?
One thing I've been reflecting on is the terminology in our relationship and how it hasn't taken that direct path from dating --> boyfriend --> husband (obviously). Nope, we went from dating --> partner, and we've stayed there for at least the past four years. Many people in our community refer to their significant others as partners for a variety of reasons - acknowledgement that their relationship is treated differently in the eyes of the law, solidarity with the queer community, recognition that their relationship is more significant than just casual dating, etc. For me, 'partner' signified that we had made a lasting commitment to one another - moreso, I guess, than whatever commitment I assumed 'girlfriend' implied.
But I also think it had something to do with Mr. FW's gender presentation. As you know, he was never a stereotypical female, so the term girlfriend didn't seem to fit anyway. (For the record, I'm not advocating using the term 'girlfriend' only when a person is stereotypically female. If someone is butch, genderqueer, gender variant, male, or anything else and they want to be a 'girlfriend' - more power to them. I strongly believe that everyone has the right to pick/change/shun their own labels. I'm just saying that particular label didn't work for us.) Even when we talked about getting married before his transition, I don't think I actively considered the possibility that I'd then have a 'wife,' although I sincerely hope if we had gone that route that I'd have found a way to embrace the term as passionately (and politically) as Ms. Stripes writes about in this amazing guest post on So You're Engayged.
People have different feelings about the term partner, and that's okay. For me, partner is a powerful word, made even more powerful since my exit from the world of visibly queer folk. It's not a perfect word, and yet it's a word that connects me to my community, history and beliefs. It makes a statement about who I am in a way that the H word never will. When gay male couples use the term husband to refer to each other, they take brave steps forward in staking a claim to the important social and political ground occupied by that language. When I use the H word it moves nothing forward. In fact, it feels like that word makes invisible some of the ground I've been able to claim for myself.
Clearly this is all a personal choice, and a culturally-constructed one at that. It's about who you are, where you've been, where you are now, who you're with, and where you're going - together. Me? I'm an invisibly queer woman who grew up deep in the Bible Belt, currently living in the leftest city on the Left Coast. I'm connected by the heartstrings to an invisibly trans man, and we're working to build a future and a family together - a journey that began long before we'll ever be married. Mix it all together, and 'partner' is what I come up with. Does that mean I'll never use the H word? I honestly can't answer that. Right now it doesn't seem at all appealing, so I'm perfectly happy to stick with the label that feels most comfortable to me. And if I change my mind one day I'm sure I'll have good reasons for it, and I'll be perfectly happy with that as well.
Tell me, Hive. How have you grappled with language and terminology during the course of your relationship?
Tuesday, July 26, 2011
White Knots for Equality
Marriage equality is an *extremely* important topic for the Ferris Wheels. In fact, our marriage talks began back when California legalized marriage for same sex couples because, at the time, we were a same sex couple. We knew we wanted to get married, but we were both still students and the timing just wasn't right for us yet. Unless you've been in this situation, it's impossible to explain what it feels like to consider rushing to get married because you're afraid you'll never again have the opportunity to legalize your union with the person you love. In the end we decided to wait until we were ready, even if it meant that our relationship wouldn't be legitimized by state and federal governments.
Unlike most other queer couples, we're now able to access the institution of marriage because of Mr. FW's gender change. We wrestled with the politics of our decision to get married, and we remain steadfast in our belief that all loving and committed couples deserve to be treated equally in the eyes of the law. We will openly talk about this belief during our marriage ceremony and we wanted to give our guests a way to visibly show their support of marriage equality as well. Enter white knots for marriage equality.
In our ceremony program we plan to include a page with the white knots and a description of their meaning.
Compared to how much this issue means to us personally, the supplies to make these were ridiculously affordable. We bought everything on eBay - 10 yards of 3/8" white grosgrain ribbon, 100 tiny plastic bags, and 144 small safety pins for a total cost of $11.60. The process of making them was equally as simple.
We hope that by including these knots right in the ceremony program people will have ample time to read the information, make a decision for themselves about whether or not to wear them throughout the rest of the night, and maybe even have conversations about the fact that we included them in the first place. And really, that's what it's all about.
How are you incorporating your own beliefs (cultural, political, personal, or otherwise) into your wedding day?
Unlike most other queer couples, we're now able to access the institution of marriage because of Mr. FW's gender change. We wrestled with the politics of our decision to get married, and we remain steadfast in our belief that all loving and committed couples deserve to be treated equally in the eyes of the law. We will openly talk about this belief during our marriage ceremony and we wanted to give our guests a way to visibly show their support of marriage equality as well. Enter white knots for marriage equality.
In our ceremony program we plan to include a page with the white knots and a description of their meaning.
Compared to how much this issue means to us personally, the supplies to make these were ridiculously affordable. We bought everything on eBay - 10 yards of 3/8" white grosgrain ribbon, 100 tiny plastic bags, and 144 small safety pins for a total cost of $11.60. The process of making them was equally as simple.
{5 easy steps, not including the step where I heat-singed the notched edges of the ribbon}
We hope that by including these knots right in the ceremony program people will have ample time to read the information, make a decision for themselves about whether or not to wear them throughout the rest of the night, and maybe even have conversations about the fact that we included them in the first place. And really, that's what it's all about.
How are you incorporating your own beliefs (cultural, political, personal, or otherwise) into your wedding day?
Wednesday, April 27, 2011
Partying with the In-Laws
Now that you know the story of our engagement(s), let me tell you the story of the first real wedding-related event we attended - thrown by my incredible future sister-in-law! Not only have she and her husband given me and Mr. FW the most amazing niece ever (just in time to be a flower girl, no less!)...
... but she organized the sweetest engagement dinner for us shortly after we made it all *official.* Just to clarify - this would've been amazing no matter what, but it's particularly meaningful because it was the first time I truly realized the emotional big deal-ness of this whole engagement/marriage thing. I guess I thought that because we'd been together for so long, and because everyone knew we were in it for the long haul, and because it doesn't seem like the marriage part of our relationship will concretely change anything about our day-to-day lives, the engagement would just feel like normal life except we would have rings on our fingers and I could be more unabashedly open about our wedding planning. But I was so wrong.
I don't know the words to describe the feeling that washed over me during that dinner, but all I can say is I became aware of this... beautiful emotional weight... the heaviness and the awe of this historically-valued institution of marriage that so many before us have entered into. And I felt so very, very loved.
Among other thoughtful gifts (*yay* for a big stack of weddings mags, that I wantwantwanted but needed like I needed a hole in the head), FSIL organized other family members to provide us with individualized 'words of wisdom' cards that were both touching and hilarious to read aloud during dinner.
I am so lucky to be marrying into such an ah-ma-zing family.
When did the the historical and emotional weight of marriage hit you for the first time?
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{a picture I took of Flower Girl S, just a few hours after she was born} |
... but she organized the sweetest engagement dinner for us shortly after we made it all *official.* Just to clarify - this would've been amazing no matter what, but it's particularly meaningful because it was the first time I truly realized the emotional big deal-ness of this whole engagement/marriage thing. I guess I thought that because we'd been together for so long, and because everyone knew we were in it for the long haul, and because it doesn't seem like the marriage part of our relationship will concretely change anything about our day-to-day lives, the engagement would just feel like normal life except we would have rings on our fingers and I could be more unabashedly open about our wedding planning. But I was so wrong.
{us, with FBIL} |
{FBIL with niece/flower girl S} |
{FSIL and us} |
{FFIL, FMIL, and Flower Girl S} |
I don't know the words to describe the feeling that washed over me during that dinner, but all I can say is I became aware of this... beautiful emotional weight... the heaviness and the awe of this historically-valued institution of marriage that so many before us have entered into. And I felt so very, very loved.
Among other thoughtful gifts (*yay* for a big stack of weddings mags, that I wantwantwanted but needed like I needed a hole in the head), FSIL organized other family members to provide us with individualized 'words of wisdom' cards that were both touching and hilarious to read aloud during dinner.
![]() |
{"A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person." - Mignon McLaughlin; from FSIL} |
{To keep your marriage brimming with love in the wedding cup, whenever you're wrong, admit it. Whenever you're right, shut up. - Ogden Nath; from FMIL} |
I am so lucky to be marrying into such an ah-ma-zing family.
When did the the historical and emotional weight of marriage hit you for the first time?
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